The Stem Cell Veto
Justin Higgins — Wed, 2007-06-20 16:02
Update: Embryonic stem cells haven't caused cancer in lots of folks, as I first claimed, but in clinical tests in rats and other lab animals.
Some people, even on the right, are upset that President Bush has vetoed another funding bill for embryonic stem cells. I for one, am happy he did so. I believe he is in the right on this issue, and if you look at his actions following the veto, you can see why:
WASHINGTON -- President Bush vetoed a bill easing federal funding for embryonic stem cell research today, White House Press Secretary Tony Snow said.
At an East Room event later this afternoon, Bush plans to issue an executive order directing the Health and Human Services Department to promote research into "pluripotent" stem cells that might regenerate cell types and body tissues without use of embryonic stem cells, making them prime weapons in the war against diseases.
Adult stem cells, cord blood cells, and other non-embryonic cells can be used to do the same things that many scientists believe embryonic cells can do. In fact, scientists have had considerable success using non-embryonic stem cells, and practically no gains have been made using embryonic stem cells. We have to remember that private funding is still pouring into the embryonic stem cell research field, and it's just federal money that the President is blocking. Case in point on using adult cells, this discovery that opens a lot of doors:
Science Daily — A new type of hybrid cell created at Harvard University couldeventually solve the mystery of how embryonic stem cells develop intospecialized adult cells, and provide genetically tailored treatments for many human diseases.
Let's not walk on the moral slippery slope when unnecessary, especially when the ethically sound science is yielding more results. We need to keep pursuing non-embryonic research, because it's both ethical and more effective.
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One lie exposed, more answers needed
meatbra.i.n — Sun, 2007-06-24 07:58"Embryonic stem cells haven't caused cancer in lots of folks, as I first claimed, but in clinical tests in rats and other lab animals."
So you were lying to your readers, not only when you made the original claim, but when you asserted that the articles you linked to supported your claim. Glad we have that settled.
You were asked other questions about your claims, Justin. Can you now dredge up the intestinal fortitude to answer those?
• How do the costs of embryonic stem cell research compare to the costs of research on non-embryonic stem cells?
• What are the specific ethical dangers of embryonic stem cell research?
And given that we now know that you lied about the human cancers, this next question has to be asked:
• What is the evidence that embryonic stem cells have caused cancers in clinical tests in rats and other lab animals?
Still no facts from Justin
meatbra.i.n — Sun, 2007-06-24 08:57Justin Higgins has deleted this comment twice already, because he is afraid to meet the challenge it poses.
"Transplanting embryonic stem cells has resulted in cancer in a lot of folks..."
That was your claim, Justin. You can't back it up.
Show us the exact passages in the articles you linked to that state that patients have already been treated with an embryonic stem cell transplant, and that those patients have contracted cancer attributed to the transplant.
Dude, read
Justin Higgins — Fri, 2007-06-22 20:58An example is, in the one article it mentions that cells that duplicate quickly can cause cancer, and in another, it talks about how quickly embryonic stem cells duplicate. God forbid something take some comprehension. You're AFRAID TO READ.
Prove it
mea.tbrain — Fri, 2007-06-22 20:50Go on, Justin. Show us the exact passage in one of the articles you linked to that states that a patient has already been treated with an embryonic stem cell transplant, and that that patient has contracted cancer attributed to the transplant.
C'mon. Cite the passage. Make a fool out of old meatbrain. Show us that you read and understood what the articles you cited actually said.
How bout you read...
Justin Higgins — Fri, 2007-06-22 20:32...because several of them do. God forbid a liberal learns something.
Some articles... how nice
mea.tbrain — Fri, 2007-06-22 20:31Justin, what exactly was your claim?
"Transplanting embryonic stem cells has resulted in cancer in a lot of folks..."
(emphasis mine)
Did you take English in high school, Justin? What is the tense of the phrase "has resulted"?
You've claimed that patients have already been afflicted with cancer after being treated with embryonic stem cell transplants. Which of the articles you cited mention these patients, please?
Some articles to read...
Justin Higgins — Fri, 2007-06-22 19:43Read this one about the guy at MIT making stem cells from adult cells, which mentions the cancer perspective.
And I'm sure you're going to throw this out because of where it's written, but this is written by a doctor.
And then this gives you some background on various OTHER stem cell lines causing cancer, because they duplicate uncontrollably. Embryonic stem cells duplicate more uncontrollably than specialized adult cells, which are pluripotent.
And plenty of articles on this page have info on this line of science.
Claims noted -- how 'bout some facts?
mea.tbrain — Fri, 2007-06-22 19:16What evidence can you present that "[t]ransplanting embryonic stem cells has resulted in cancer in a lot of folks"? What are the statistics on the incidence of cancer in human patients treated with embryonic stem cells?
How do the costs of embryonic stem cell research compare to the costs of research on non-embryonic stem cells?
What are the specific ethical dangers of embryonic stem cell research?
Why?
Justin Higgins — Fri, 2007-06-22 08:24Why go down a moral slippery slope when the other line of advance (adult stem cells) are actually producing results, quickly, and efficiently. Transplanting embryonic stem cells has resulted in cancer in a lot of folks, and it's costly and ethically dangerous research. I'm just saying, if something else is working, and working easily and without controversy, why not pursue that?
stem cell veto
SteveInPhilly (not verified) — Fri, 2007-06-22 08:05This is just another cheap ploy designed to placate us on the rght. Bush is not a conservative. His immigration stance has finally opened my eyes.
Justin Higgins: medical prodigy
mea.tbrain — Fri, 2007-06-22 05:08That's right! Absolutely! Everybody knows that every single other medical advance in the history of mankind was producing useful and innovative results within nine years of its initial discovery. Embryonic human stem cells have clearly failed the nine year test. They'll never amount to anything! Pour them all down the drain and forget them! Seventeen-year-old right-wing bloggers are ALWAYS ALWAYS RIGHT when they opine on the usefulness of medical research! NIH should always consult bloggers with no medical or scientific training before funding any medical research -- ALWAYS!
I think...
Justin Higgins — Thu, 2007-06-21 19:57...that you missed that fact that embryonic stem cells aren't saving anyone, at all, no one, zip, zero, no cures.
But...
socketplug — Thu, 2007-06-21 19:37So I'm confused...
"Destroying human life in the hopes of saving human life is not ethical", but then again "the U.S. military knew there were children at the compound but considered the target of such high value it was worth the risk of potential collateral damage."
Honestly, there does seem to be a double standard here.
Hat tip to meatbrain via FireDogLake.
But then again (from Wikipedia): On May 10, 1996, appearing on 60 Minutes, Madeleine Albright (then U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations) was presented with a figure of half a million children under five having died from the sanctions. Not challenging this figure, she infamously replied "we think the price is worth it", though she later rued the comment as "stupid.".
Bush shows he still has scruples
Douglas V. Gibbs (not verified) — Wed, 2007-06-20 21:09President Bush is showing that despite his position on immigration and such, he still has a spine when it comes to his basic morals.
Hell yes
Sonnabend (not verified) — Wed, 2007-06-20 17:07For one very pl;ain simple reason.
EST doesn't work. No results, no cures, no progress.
Zilch.
Zip.
Nada.
Less luck than trying to encourage one of meatbrains two brain cells to try and reproduce.And even those need a good kick in the ass.
So, good on you, Mr President.
Now about those wetbacks....